Discussion:
JLU Ending: SPOILERS!
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Hand-of-Omega
2005-07-09 20:59:07 UTC
Permalink
Just saw the final episodes of Justice League Unlimited: WOW.
Mr. McDuffie, my hat's off to you. I don't care *what* the demographics
are, so long as you continue to produce such high-quality work. I
haven't seen an American cartoon hit so many high-notes or move me so
much since Gargoyles (though Avatar the Last Airbender is shaping up
pretty good!)...I was really kept guessing, and couldn't see any way
out of the situation that didn't involve either the League voluntarily
disbanding or actually taking over!

Like the subject line says, SPOILERS beyond this point...


*The Clash already aired, of course, but I'd like to point out to those
who may have missed it that one of the buildings Superman and Captain
Marvel demolish is the "Lena Luthor" Hospital (I kept looking for
"Otisberg"!)...

*YES!! The *true* villain behind Luthor WAS Brainiac! I called it!!
(not to brag or anything, it's just rare for me to successfully call
*anything*!^^) Luthor's joining with the Big B did make sense, after
all it was essentially what he was after anyhow. I did wonder why, if
Brainiac was after a new superpowerful body, did he let such a golden
opportunity as Amazo slip right past him...Bonus geek points for
Brainy's "giant head ship"!

*I'm glad we at least see a moment of humanity from Galatea...who
knows, after things resolve, maybe there'll be a place for Power Girl
in the League! So I guess Hamilton and the others don't get their
comeuppance?

*Steel and Supergirl finally see some action...I'm assuming that Steel,
along with Luthor, is one of the three able to hack the fusion cannon;
who was the other? And was that Phil LaMarr as Steel?

*The extended fight with the Ulti-army was fantastic; pity about those
normal humans who had to fight the T-Rex, tho! Where's Beast Boy when
you need him?^^;

*Flash more than made up for his lack of presence in earlier episodes;
nice references to the Speed Force, as well as to Crisis on Infinite
Earths, in a way. I do find it hard to believe that he removed every
nanotrace of Brainiac from Luthor's body without killing him,
however...

*Superman mentions setting up some sort of "embassey" on Earth for the
JL to work from...Hall of Justice, anyone?^^ (notice Summer Gleeson in
the audience...)

*"Who guards the guardsmen"? C'mon, that's not the translation most of
us comics fans are familiar with and you know it!^__^

*I never watched much of Batman Beyond, but this did seem like a good
way to end the series. It looks like it's 5-10 years after the show
ended? Wasn't Superman also a member of the future Justice League?

*Waller in the future sounded alot like the Oracle from The Matrix.
Normally cartoons going on about religious conviction annoy me, yet it
worked here. Sounds to me like she had *more* than admiration going on
for Bruce! Why does he look so much older than her, anyway? I like how
Bruce and Terry end up as almost the "Sanford and Son" of
superheroes...^_~

*I wasn't expecting to ever see Ace again; nice how they gave her
closure. Look closely when the new Royal Flush gang changes back to
normal; "Queen" is one in more ways than one!^_^

*Lovely how themes and threads from shows all the way back to BTAS are
referenced; hell, I kept expecting Static and Krypto to help out!
Ironically, I just picked up the season one Batman box set and so
noticed that the final shot of JLU almost exactly approximates the
*first* shot of BTAS...(wipes tear away)

Dex,
practically exploding from the geek-stacy...
Brian Doyle
2005-07-09 21:32:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hand-of-Omega
Just saw the final episodes of Justice League Unlimited: WOW.
Mr. McDuffie, my hat's off to you. I don't care *what* the demographics
are, so long as you continue to produce such high-quality work. I
haven't seen an American cartoon hit so many high-notes or move me so
much since Gargoyles (though Avatar the Last Airbender is shaping up
pretty good!)...I was really kept guessing, and couldn't see any way
out of the situation that didn't involve either the League voluntarily
disbanding or actually taking over!
Like the subject line says, SPOILERS beyond this point...
A little more Spoiler Space never hurts then
Post by Hand-of-Omega
*YES!! The *true* villain behind Luthor WAS Brainiac! I called it!!
(not to brag or anything, it's just rare for me to successfully call
*anything*!^^) Luthor's joining with the Big B did make sense, after
all it was essentially what he was after anyhow. I did wonder why, if
Brainiac was after a new superpowerful body, did he let such a golden
opportunity as Amazo slip right past him...
Amazo had that annoying free will thing going on.
Post by Hand-of-Omega
Bonus geek points for Brainy's "giant head ship"!
Indeed.
Post by Hand-of-Omega
*Steel and Supergirl finally see some action...I'm assuming that Steel,
along with Luthor, is one of the three able to hack the fusion cannon;
who was the other?
Mr Terrific would be high on my list.
Post by Hand-of-Omega
And was that Phil LaMarr as Steel?
I believe so
Post by Hand-of-Omega
*The extended fight with the Ulti-army was fantastic; pity about those
normal humans who had to fight the T-Rex, tho! Where's Beast Boy when
you need him?^^;
Yup,the Superfriends were actually prety powerful. (Just a shame we couldn't
get the classic line up AND Robin somehow.
Post by Hand-of-Omega
*Flash more than made up for his lack of presence in earlier episodes;
nice references to the Speed Force, as well as to Crisis on Infinite
Earths, in a way. I do find it hard to believe that he removed every
nanotrace of Brainiac from Luthor's body without killing him,
however...
Hey, you get superspeed powers, we'll believe you when you say it!
Post by Hand-of-Omega
*I never watched much of Batman Beyond, but this did seem like a good
way to end the series. It looks like it's 5-10 years after the show
ended? Wasn't Superman also a member of the future Justice League?
Yes he was, and just to rub rc022586's nose in the error in assuming the
heroes are ALWAYS good Superman, had at that point been possessed by Starro,
and was using his powers to harm others.
Post by Hand-of-Omega
*Waller in the future sounded alot like the Oracle from The Matrix.
Normally cartoons going on about religious conviction annoy me, yet it
worked here. Sounds to me like she had *more* than admiration going on
for Bruce!
My queries remain; What about Matt, Terry's little brother? Given how much
he looks like big bro, one has to assume he's another product of the BB
program, c'mon, let's see him in a Robin Beyond costume at least once! :)
And of course, the longstanding ; What the F*^& happened to NIGHTWING! I
actually found Waller's comments about him needing a son to be overly
dismissive, since he already HAD two sons, Dick and Tim.
Post by Hand-of-Omega
Why does he look so much older than her, anyway?
He doesn't drink green tea and so misses out on the antioxidants. Plus he's
lived a more.... hectic life than she has.
Post by Hand-of-Omega
*I wasn't expecting to ever see Ace again; nice how they gave her
closure.
An absolutely wonderful scene that, with Batman at his most human and
compassionate, holding out his hand so a little girl who was dying wouldn't
be afraid to be alone. That's how I wish the comics Batman would behave more
often (But if I had a penny for every time I watched the Aniamted Batman and
thought that I'd be a rich man)
Post by Hand-of-Omega
Look closely when the new Royal Flush gang changes back to
normal; "Queen" is one in more ways than one!^_^
Apparently there's double meaning behind all of them, apart from "Drag"
Queen we have Samurai "Jack". Not sure about the others offhand.
Stranger
2005-07-09 21:42:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hand-of-Omega
*I wasn't expecting to ever see Ace again; nice how they gave her
closure. Look closely when the new Royal Flush gang changes back to
normal; "Queen" is one in more ways than one!^_^
Who is Ace? I wasn't aware that we had seen her before.

- Dan
Brian Doyle
2005-07-09 22:41:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stranger
Post by Hand-of-Omega
*I wasn't expecting to ever see Ace again; nice how they gave her
closure. Look closely when the new Royal Flush gang changes back to
normal; "Queen" is one in more ways than one!^_^
Who is Ace? I wasn't aware that we had seen her before.
She appeared in a Season 2 JL episode, as a member of one incarnation of the
Royal Flush Gang, they were all metahumans basically kidnapped by a Black
ops agency to be trained as killers, and released by the Joker for his own
purposes.
Isaac
2005-07-12 05:04:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Doyle
Post by Stranger
Post by Hand-of-Omega
*I wasn't expecting to ever see Ace again; nice how they gave her
closure. Look closely when the new Royal Flush gang changes back to
normal; "Queen" is one in more ways than one!^_^
Who is Ace? I wasn't aware that we had seen her before.
She appeared in a Season 2 JL episode, as a member of one incarnation of the
Royal Flush Gang, they were all metahumans basically kidnapped by a Black
ops agency to be trained as killers, and released by the Joker for his own
purposes.
Kidnapped might not be the right word. Ace was taken in by the government
after she had turned her parents catatonic.

Isaac
David Johnston
2005-07-09 21:56:17 UTC
Permalink
On 9 Jul 2005 13:59:07 -0700, "Hand-of-Omega"
Post by Hand-of-Omega
*I never watched much of Batman Beyond, but this did seem like a good
way to end the series. It looks like it's 5-10 years after the show
ended?
More like 40+ years.
Post by Hand-of-Omega
Wasn't Superman also a member of the future Justice League?
Yes.
Post by Hand-of-Omega
*Waller in the future sounded alot like the Oracle from The Matrix.
Normally cartoons going on about religious conviction annoy me, yet it
worked here. Sounds to me like she had *more* than admiration going on
for Bruce! Why does he look so much older than her, anyway?
She uses moisturiser.
Brian Doyle
2005-07-09 22:42:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Johnston
On 9 Jul 2005 13:59:07 -0700, "Hand-of-Omega"
Post by Hand-of-Omega
*I never watched much of Batman Beyond, but this did seem like a good
way to end the series. It looks like it's 5-10 years after the show
ended?
More like 40+ years.
I believe he means 10 years after Batman Beyond ended, Terry is in his mid
to late 20's as opposed to a teenager so it's about 10 years in the future.
David Johnston
2005-07-09 23:33:01 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 9 Jul 2005 23:42:47 +0100, "Brian Doyle"
Post by Brian Doyle
Post by David Johnston
On 9 Jul 2005 13:59:07 -0700, "Hand-of-Omega"
Post by Hand-of-Omega
*I never watched much of Batman Beyond, but this did seem like a good
way to end the series. It looks like it's 5-10 years after the show
ended?
More like 40+ years.
I believe he means 10 years after Batman Beyond ended, Terry is in his mid
to late 20's as opposed to a teenager so it's about 10 years in the future.
Oh. Yes, Green Lantern's aging pretty thoroughly establishes that.
GregoryD
2005-07-09 22:10:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hand-of-Omega
Just saw the final episodes of Justice League Unlimited: WOW.
Mr. McDuffie, my hat's off to you. I don't care *what* the demographics
are, so long as you continue to produce such high-quality work. I
haven't seen an American cartoon hit so many high-notes or move me so
much since Gargoyles (though Avatar the Last Airbender is shaping up
pretty good!)...I was really kept guessing, and couldn't see any way
out of the situation that didn't involve either the League voluntarily
disbanding or actually taking over!
Like the subject line says, SPOILERS beyond this point...
*The Clash already aired, of course, but I'd like to point out to those
who may have missed it that one of the buildings Superman and Captain
Marvel demolish is the "Lena Luthor" Hospital (I kept looking for
"Otisberg"!)...
*YES!! The *true* villain behind Luthor WAS Brainiac! I called it!!
(not to brag or anything, it's just rare for me to successfully call
*anything*!^^) Luthor's joining with the Big B did make sense, after
all it was essentially what he was after anyhow. I did wonder why, if
Brainiac was after a new superpowerful body, did he let such a golden
opportunity as Amazo slip right past him...Bonus geek points for
Brainy's "giant head ship"!
No, the true villain behind Luthor was Luthor. Lex would have done the
same thing regardless of whatever influence Brainiac had. As far as Amazo
is concerned, he was building another Amazo body. The original is a
sentient being who he couldn't possibly control.
Post by Hand-of-Omega
*I'm glad we at least see a moment of humanity from Galatea...who
knows, after things resolve, maybe there'll be a place for Power Girl
in the League! So I guess Hamilton and the others don't get their
comeuppance?
They were working for the government because they had a reason to be
afraid of the JLU. A good part of the entire story was to show that there
are good reasons why people might oppose the league.
Post by Hand-of-Omega
*Steel and Supergirl finally see some action...I'm assuming that Steel,
along with Luthor, is one of the three able to hack the fusion cannon;
who was the other? And was that Phil LaMarr as Steel?
Luthor, Atom, either Steel or Superman.
Post by Hand-of-Omega
*The extended fight with the Ulti-army was fantastic; pity about those
normal humans who had to fight the T-Rex, tho! Where's Beast Boy when
you need him?^^;
Meh... the wonder twin took the form of a t-rex, but those folks had heavy
metal to throw at it.
Post by Hand-of-Omega
*Flash more than made up for his lack of presence in earlier episodes;
nice references to the Speed Force, as well as to Crisis on Infinite
Earths, in a way. I do find it hard to believe that he removed every
nanotrace of Brainiac from Luthor's body without killing him, however...
Brainiac always has backup plans, but it's pretty obvious that Luthor is
free of Brainiac, simply because it'd be stupid to revisit this particular
story.
Post by Hand-of-Omega
*Superman mentions setting up some sort of "embassey" on Earth for
the JL to work from...Hall of Justice, anyone?^^ (notice Summer Gleeson in
the audience...)
Of course, although I wonder how much the embassy will actually look like
the hall.
Post by Hand-of-Omega
*"Who guards the guardsmen"? C'mon, that's not the translation most of
us comics fans are familiar with and you know it!^__^
That was guardians, but yeah, we got the point.
Post by Hand-of-Omega
*I never watched much of Batman Beyond, but this did seem like a good
way to end the series. It looks like it's 5-10 years after the show
ended? Wasn't Superman also a member of the future Justice League?
More like 15 years. Terry had just started dating his girlfriend steadily
when the series ended.
Post by Hand-of-Omega
*Waller in the future sounded alot like the Oracle from The Matrix.
Normally cartoons going on about religious conviction annoy me, yet it
worked here.
The Matrix was utter trash compared to this season of JLU. Waller is
simply an old woman who has seen and caused her share of misery, but she
did it for what she believed was all the right reasons. Even in the
comics, she's no stranger from being behind bars, yet she has nothing but
good intentions for the country as a whole at the core of her being.
Post by Hand-of-Omega
Sounds to me like she had *more* than admiration going on
for Bruce! Why does he look so much older than her, anyway? I like how
Bruce and Terry end up as almost the "Sanford and Son" of
superheroes...^_~
Doubtful. Waller has pretty strong convictions and she was married.
Bruce looked older because he put himself through hell throughout his
life, and Waller rarely personally got her hands dirty. She's much better
at planning and being an administrator than handling threats personally.
Post by Hand-of-Omega
*I wasn't expecting to ever see Ace again; nice how they gave her
closure. Look closely when the new Royal Flush gang changes back to
normal; "Queen" is one in more ways than one!^_^
*Lovely how themes and threads from shows all the way back to BTAS are
referenced; hell, I kept expecting Static and Krypto to help out!
Ironically, I just picked up the season one Batman box set and so
noticed that the final shot of JLU almost exactly approximates the
*first* shot of BTAS...(wipes tear away)
The last ep was a throwaway episode, but it couldn't have taken place
without the culmination of that JLU arc. Waller was just the right person
to inject into that story.

GregoryD
Brian Doyle
2005-07-09 22:47:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by GregoryD
Post by Hand-of-Omega
*I never watched much of Batman Beyond, but this did seem like a good
way to end the series. It looks like it's 5-10 years after the show
ended? Wasn't Superman also a member of the future Justice League?
More like 15 years. Terry had just started dating his girlfriend
steadily when the series ended.
Though he had been dating her for about two or three years before BB
started.
Post by GregoryD
The Matrix was utter trash compared to this season of JLU.
Though that is a very low hurdle to set.
Post by GregoryD
Post by Hand-of-Omega
Sounds to me like she had *more* than admiration going on
for Bruce!
Doubtful. Waller has pretty strong convictions and she was married.
To be blunt, so what? She could admire, respect and at a certain level love
Bruce, regardless of being married, and being quite aware that it was
entirely unrequited. And do we have any evidence JLU Waller ever was
married?
GregoryD
2005-07-10 02:23:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Doyle
Post by GregoryD
Post by Hand-of-Omega
*I never watched much of Batman Beyond, but this did seem like a good
way to end the series. It looks like it's 5-10 years after the show
ended? Wasn't Superman also a member of the future Justice League?
More like 15 years. Terry had just started dating his girlfriend
steadily when the series ended.
Though he had been dating her for about two or three years before BB
started.
Post by GregoryD
The Matrix was utter trash compared to this season of JLU.
Though that is a very low hurdle to set.
Post by GregoryD
Post by Hand-of-Omega
Sounds to me like she had *more* than admiration going on
for Bruce!
Doubtful. Waller has pretty strong convictions and she was married.
To be blunt, so what? She could admire, respect and at a certain level love
Bruce, regardless of being married, and being quite aware that it was
entirely unrequited. And do we have any evidence JLU Waller ever was
married?
Other than she was never referred to as anything but Mrs. Waller? There
has never been an indication that she had anything other than a respect
for Bruce. You can suggest otherwise if you wish, but that ultimately
demeans the character.

GregoryD
Devlin Tay
2005-07-10 05:25:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by GregoryD
Other than she was never referred to as anything but Mrs. Waller? There
has never been an indication that she had anything other than a respect
for Bruce. You can suggest otherwise if you wish, but that ultimately
demeans the character.
Demeans her character, how exactly? Just because she's a strong,
independent, patriotic woman, she can't have a soft spot for a man like
the Batman? She does have a great deal of respect for the Batman, but
that episode certainly made it clear that she also had a soft spot for
him. To me, at least.

Devlin
Adelaide, Australia
Brian Doyle
2005-07-10 07:23:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by GregoryD
Post by Brian Doyle
Post by GregoryD
Post by Hand-of-Omega
Sounds to me like she had *more* than admiration going on
for Bruce!
Doubtful. Waller has pretty strong convictions and she was married.
To be blunt, so what? She could admire, respect and at a certain level love
Bruce, regardless of being married, and being quite aware that it was
entirely unrequited. And do we have any evidence JLU Waller ever was
married?
Other than she was never referred to as anything but Mrs. Waller?
Fair point, though she could still be divorced or a widow as we never saw
any sign of Mr Waller on the scene.
Post by GregoryD
There has never been an indication that she had anything other than a
respect
for Bruce. You can suggest otherwise if you wish, but that ultimately
demeans the character.
Again, why? Just because you're married doesn't mean you can't still
appreciate someone who has all the qualities you admire, and Batman had that
by the bucketload.
Isaac
2005-07-09 22:59:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hand-of-Omega
Just saw the final episodes of Justice League Unlimited: WOW.
Mr. McDuffie, my hat's off to you. I don't care *what* the demographics
are, so long as you continue to produce such high-quality work. I
haven't seen an American cartoon hit so many high-notes or move me so
much since Gargoyles (though Avatar the Last Airbender is shaping up
pretty good!)...I was really kept guessing, and couldn't see any way
out of the situation that didn't involve either the League voluntarily
disbanding or actually taking over!
Like the subject line says, SPOILERS beyond this point...
Just a bit more spoiler space...
Post by Hand-of-Omega
*YES!! The *true* villain behind Luthor WAS Brainiac! I called it!!
(not to brag or anything, it's just rare for me to successfully call
*anything*!^^) Luthor's joining with the Big B did make sense, after
all it was essentially what he was after anyhow. I did wonder why, if
Brainiac was after a new superpowerful body, did he let such a golden
opportunity as Amazo slip right past him...Bonus geek points for
Brainy's "giant head ship"!
*I'm glad we at least see a moment of humanity from Galatea...who
knows, after things resolve, maybe there'll be a place for Power Girl
in the League! So I guess Hamilton and the others don't get their
comeuppance?
Galatea was one of the few truly evil entities in the whole episode. If
you are suggesting that she might become Power Girl because of that one
moment of humanity, I don't see it.

Instead, I think the point of Galatea's moment was its effect on
Prof. Hamilton. If anyone is going to change for the better based
on events in this storyline, I think it would be Hamilton.
Post by Hand-of-Omega
*Steel and Supergirl finally see some action...I'm assuming that Steel,
along with Luthor, is one of the three able to hack the fusion cannon;
who was the other? And was that Phil LaMarr as Steel?
I think it would be Ray Palmer because we all know that comic book scientist
are generally good at all fields of science and engineering, and Ray is
certainly a genius level scientist.
Post by Hand-of-Omega
*The extended fight with the Ulti-army was fantastic; pity about those
normal humans who had to fight the T-Rex, tho! Where's Beast Boy when
you need him?^^;
Did the JL kill all those Ulti-Clones? I know there are some issues with
whether they were intelligent or not, and certainly the Ulti-Men were using
deadly force, but I still found the whole fight a bit unnerving.
Post by Hand-of-Omega
*Flash more than made up for his lack of presence in earlier episodes;
nice references to the Speed Force, as well as to Crisis on Infinite
Earths, in a way. I do find it hard to believe that he removed every
nanotrace of Brainiac from Luthor's body without killing him,
however...
Brainiac can certainly come back if needed.

Isaac
Devlin Tay
2005-07-10 01:35:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Isaac
Did the JL kill all those Ulti-Clones? I know there are some issues with
whether they were intelligent or not, and certainly the Ulti-Men were using
deadly force, but I still found the whole fight a bit unnerving.
I thought the Ulti-clones were all blank slates mentally controlled
controlled by the device planted on Galatea's head? When Galatea was
knocked out by that power surge, courtesy of Supergirl, all the
Ulti-Clones dropped unconscious. At least that's what I gathered from
watching the episode twice. So the JLU did not kill anyone, as far as I
gathered.

Devlin
Adelaide, Australia
Devlin Tay
2005-07-10 01:37:52 UTC
Permalink
If Infinite Crisis is even half as good as the last five episodes of JLU
Season 2, I'll be a happy man. I'm not very optimistic about that
though ...

Devlin
Adelaide, Australia
Isaac
2005-07-10 02:04:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Devlin Tay
Post by Isaac
Did the JL kill all those Ulti-Clones? I know there are some issues with
whether they were intelligent or not, and certainly the Ulti-Men were using
deadly force, but I still found the whole fight a bit unnerving.
I thought the Ulti-clones were all blank slates mentally controlled
controlled by the device planted on Galatea's head? When Galatea was
knocked out by that power surge, courtesy of Supergirl, all the
Ulti-Clones dropped unconscious. At least that's what I gathered from
watching the episode twice. So the JLU did not kill anyone, as far as I
gathered.
I think at least some of the fighting was portrayed as being deadly. If
the JLU can be said not to have killed, it was because the clones were not
human. Fire Vaporized a Wonder Twin, Vigilante was blazing away, and
plenty of the other struggles sure looked like mortal combat to me.
At least a couple of 'Apache Chiefs' appeared to bite it. Also the JL
was not shown as being aware that Supergirl was controlling mindless
Ulti-Men.

I found the mental control thing a little funky. Galatea was obviously
not directing all those encounters while doing her own fighting. Apparently
just giving out a generally attack command (keep the JL off me) was enough.
So why did they all become unconscious when Galatea was knocked off?

Anyhow, I'm not debating on whether the JL should have killed any Ulti-men,
just whether it appears that some were killed.

Isaac
GregoryD
2005-07-10 02:28:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Isaac
Post by Devlin Tay
Post by Isaac
Did the JL kill all those Ulti-Clones? I know there are some issues with
whether they were intelligent or not, and certainly the Ulti-Men were using
deadly force, but I still found the whole fight a bit unnerving.
I thought the Ulti-clones were all blank slates mentally controlled
controlled by the device planted on Galatea's head? When Galatea was
knocked out by that power surge, courtesy of Supergirl, all the
Ulti-Clones dropped unconscious. At least that's what I gathered from
watching the episode twice. So the JLU did not kill anyone, as far as I
gathered.
I think at least some of the fighting was portrayed as being deadly. If
the JLU can be said not to have killed, it was because the clones were not
human. Fire Vaporized a Wonder Twin, Vigilante was blazing away, and
plenty of the other struggles sure looked like mortal combat to me.
At least a couple of 'Apache Chiefs' appeared to bite it. Also the JL
was not shown as being aware that Supergirl was controlling mindless
Ulti-Men.
Vapor turns back into water. Vigilante was never shooting directly at his
opponents, but at pipes and other things, etc, etc.
Post by Isaac
I found the mental control thing a little funky. Galatea was obviously
not directing all those encounters while doing her own fighting. Apparently
just giving out a generally attack command (keep the JL off me) was enough.
So why did they all become unconscious when Galatea was knocked off?
Well, she had a transmitter which supposedly transmitted the electrical
impulses of her brain to direct the Ultimen. You could easily assume that
getting shocked with all of the energy in the reactor of the watchtower
might screw with the transmitter and scramble the brains of all the
Ultimen as well.
Post by Isaac
Anyhow, I'm not debating on whether the JL should have killed any Ulti-men,
just whether it appears that some were killed.
I'm assuming they didn't, simply due to the fact that they didn't say
anything to indicate as such.

GregoryD
Isaac
2005-07-10 02:46:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by GregoryD
Post by Isaac
Post by Devlin Tay
Post by Isaac
Did the JL kill all those Ulti-Clones? I know there are some issues with
whether they were intelligent or not, and certainly the Ulti-Men were using
deadly force, but I still found the whole fight a bit unnerving.
I thought the Ulti-clones were all blank slates mentally controlled
controlled by the device planted on Galatea's head? When Galatea was
knocked out by that power surge, courtesy of Supergirl, all the
Ulti-Clones dropped unconscious. At least that's what I gathered from
watching the episode twice. So the JLU did not kill anyone, as far as I
gathered.
I think at least some of the fighting was portrayed as being deadly. If
the JLU can be said not to have killed, it was because the clones were not
human. Fire Vaporized a Wonder Twin, Vigilante was blazing away, and
plenty of the other struggles sure looked like mortal combat to me.
At least a couple of 'Apache Chiefs' appeared to bite it. Also the JL
was not shown as being aware that Supergirl was controlling mindless
Ulti-Men.
Vapor turns back into water. Vigilante was never shooting directly at his
opponents, but at pipes and other things, etc, etc.
I suppose I could buy the Vapor thing.

I don't think they ever showed us what Vigilante was shooting at. Maybe
Vigilante's weapons are non lethal. Still, some of the other conflicts
sure look like deadly physical trauma was being doled out. I'll have to
rewatch the episode before I can point out some specific deadly looking
fights.
Post by GregoryD
Post by Isaac
I found the mental control thing a little funky. Galatea was obviously
not directing all those encounters while doing her own fighting. Apparently
just giving out a generally attack command (keep the JL off me) was enough.
So why did they all become unconscious when Galatea was knocked off?
Well, she had a transmitter which supposedly transmitted the electrical
impulses of her brain to direct the Ultimen. You could easily assume that
getting shocked with all of the energy in the reactor of the watchtower
might screw with the transmitter and scramble the brains of all the
Ultimen as well.
Well, I know that the Ulti-Men all turned off when Galatea was stopped, and
something like what you propose could be the answer. It could also be that
they were programmed to go down if Galatea was incapacitated.

Isaac
Mark J. Reed
2005-07-10 02:56:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Isaac
I think at least some of the fighting was portrayed as being deadly. If
the JLU can be said not to have killed, it was because the clones were not
human. Fire Vaporized a Wonder Twin, Vigilante was blazing away, and
plenty of the other struggles sure looked like mortal combat to me.
At least a couple of 'Apache Chiefs' appeared to bite it. Also the JL
was not shown as being aware that Supergirl was controlling mindless
Ulti-Men.
I don't know about the other examples cited, but yeah, Fire's evaporation
of Ulti-Zan sure looked fatal to me. And shocked the bejeezus out of the
onlookers, too, apparently.
Post by Isaac
I found the mental control thing a little funky. Galatea was obviously
not directing all those encounters while doing her own fighting. Apparently
just giving out a generally attack command (keep the JL off me) was enough.
So why did they all become unconscious when Galatea was knocked off?
I'm not sure there were any left standing at that point anyway. The whole
"going unconscious when Galatea was taken down" thing seems pretty ambiguous
to me. I was expecting something like it to happen, but by the time
Galatea was taken down - or even by the time her headthing was fried -
it was pretty inconclusive from where I was sitting.

Also, I thought Galatea looked pretty darn dead at the end. I'm not sold on
the whole Ulti-Men "not being really alive" in the first place, but saying the
same for Galatea is a whole 'nother ball of beeswax. She's not an unstable
artificial life-form cobbled together from bits and pieces; she's a
regular, garden-variety clone, just as much alive as anyone else. She
may have been aged artificially, and she may have implanted memories, but she's
still a person.

BTW, this is the third or fourth time they made reference to Kara being Clark's
"cousin". I assume that's an adoptive thing? I mean, the TAS Kara is not even
from the same planet. Now that I'm caught up on all the B:TAS that has
been released on DVD, I need to go back and do the same for S:TAS . .

But anyway, fantastic episode. I almost wish it hadn't turned out to be
Brainiac, though. As soon as Luthor became miraculously cured of his
Kryptonite poisoning (to say nothing of exhibiting super strength in
his battle with the Question) I pretty much assumed that he was going to
turn out to be Brainiac in disguise. So even though at this point it seems
more like it's really Luthor, too, and there's a symbiotic relationship going
on, I wasn't exactly surprised.
Isaac
2005-07-10 03:07:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark J. Reed
Post by Isaac
I think at least some of the fighting was portrayed as being deadly. If
the JLU can be said not to have killed, it was because the clones were not
human. Fire Vaporized a Wonder Twin, Vigilante was blazing away, and
plenty of the other struggles sure looked like mortal combat to me.
At least a couple of 'Apache Chiefs' appeared to bite it. Also the JL
was not shown as being aware that Supergirl was controlling mindless
Ulti-Men.
I don't know about the other examples cited, but yeah, Fire's evaporation
of Ulti-Zan sure looked fatal to me. And shocked the bejeezus out of the
onlookers, too, apparently.
Post by Isaac
I found the mental control thing a little funky. Galatea was obviously
not directing all those encounters while doing her own fighting. Apparently
just giving out a generally attack command (keep the JL off me) was enough.
So why did they all become unconscious when Galatea was knocked off?
I'm not sure there were any left standing at that point anyway. The whole
"going unconscious when Galatea was taken down" thing seems pretty ambiguous
to me. I was expecting something like it to happen, but by the time
Galatea was taken down - or even by the time her headthing was fried -
it was pretty inconclusive from where I was sitting.
Also, I thought Galatea looked pretty darn dead at the end. I'm not sold on
the whole Ulti-Men "not being really alive" in the first place, but saying the
It really isn't clear what's up with Galatea, but if she's alive, what's going
to happen to her? The government really cannot control her I suppose she
could locked away in a facility full of red sun lamps.
Post by Mark J. Reed
same for Galatea is a whole 'nother ball of beeswax. She's not an unstable
artificial life-form cobbled together from bits and pieces; she's a
regular, garden-variety clone, just as much alive as anyone else. She
may have been aged artificially, and she may have implanted memories, but
she's still a person.
Does Galatea have implanted memories? She seems to know that she's a clone.
Post by Mark J. Reed
BTW, this is the third or fourth time they made reference to Kara being
Clark's "cousin". I assume that's an adoptive thing? I mean, the TAS
Kara is not even
Superman pretty much thinks of her as his cousin even though there is no
apparently blood relationship. It was mentioned back in S:TAS.
Post by Mark J. Reed
But anyway, fantastic episode. I almost wish it hadn't turned out to be
I agree.

Isaac
David Johnston
2005-07-10 03:13:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark J. Reed
BTW, this is the third or fourth time they made reference to Kara being Clark's
"cousin". I assume that's an adoptive thing? I mean, the TAS Kara is not even
from the same planet.
She isn't?
Mark J. Reed
2005-07-10 03:39:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Johnston
Post by Mark J. Reed
BTW, this is the third or fourth time they made reference to Kara being Clark's
"cousin". I assume that's an adoptive thing? I mean, the TAS Kara is not even
from the same planet.
She isn't?
No. In animated continuity, Argo wasn't a Kryptonian city, but another planet
in Krypton's solar system. Originally a Kryptonian colony from way back, IIRC.
Isaac
2005-07-10 11:58:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark J. Reed
Post by David Johnston
Post by Mark J. Reed
BTW, this is the third or fourth time they made reference to Kara being
Clark's "cousin". I assume that's an adoptive thing? I mean, the TAS
Kara is not even from the same planet.
She isn't?
No. In animated continuity, Argo wasn't a Kryptonian city, but another planet
in Krypton's solar system. Originally a Kryptonian colony from way back, IIRC
I don't think they were ever explicity about the relationship of the
inhabitants of Krypton and Argo. For all we know Krypton could be the colony,
or maybe both are colonies of some third world like Daxam.

Isaac
Brian Doyle
2005-07-10 12:29:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Isaac
Post by Mark J. Reed
Post by David Johnston
Post by Mark J. Reed
BTW, this is the third or fourth time they made reference to Kara being
Clark's "cousin". I assume that's an adoptive thing? I mean, the TAS
Kara is not even from the same planet.
She isn't?
No. In animated continuity, Argo wasn't a Kryptonian city, but another planet
in Krypton's solar system. Originally a Kryptonian colony from way back, IIRC
I don't think they were ever explicity about the relationship of the
inhabitants of Krypton and Argo. For all we know Krypton could be the colony,
or maybe both are colonies of some third world like Daxam.
For that last one, the giveaway would be if she reacts to kryptonite or
lead?
Isaac
2005-07-10 12:48:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Doyle
Post by Isaac
Post by Mark J. Reed
Post by David Johnston
Post by Mark J. Reed
BTW, this is the third or fourth time they made reference to Kara being
Clark's "cousin". I assume that's an adoptive thing? I mean, the TAS
Kara is not even from the same planet.
She isn't?
No. In animated continuity, Argo wasn't a Kryptonian city, but another planet
in Krypton's solar system. Originally a Kryptonian colony from way back, IIRC
I don't think they were ever explicity about the relationship of the
inhabitants of Krypton and Argo. For all we know Krypton could be the colony,
or maybe both are colonies of some third world like Daxam.
For that last one, the giveaway would be if she reacts to kryptonite or
lead?
She's vulnerable to kryptonite not lead, but I'm not sure that completely
rules out Daxam and it certainly does not rule out some other world being
the common origin point for Krypto and Argo inhabitants.

Isaac
Brian Doyle
2005-07-10 12:55:40 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 13:29:48 +0100, Brian Doyle
Post by Brian Doyle
Post by Isaac
Post by Mark J. Reed
On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 02:56:04 GMT, Mark J. Reed
Post by Mark J. Reed
BTW, this is the third or fourth time they made reference to
Kara being Clark's "cousin". I assume that's an adoptive thing?
I mean, the TAS Kara is not even from the same planet.
She isn't?
No. In animated continuity, Argo wasn't a Kryptonian city, but another planet
in Krypton's solar system. Originally a Kryptonian colony from way back, IIRC
I don't think they were ever explicity about the relationship of the
inhabitants of Krypton and Argo. For all we know Krypton could be the colony,
or maybe both are colonies of some third world like Daxam.
For that last one, the giveaway would be if she reacts to kryptonite
or lead?
She's vulnerable to kryptonite not lead, but I'm not sure that
completely rules out Daxam
Well, assuming parallels between Comic DCU and Animated DCU unless otherwise
stated, it pretty much does, as Daxamites are immune to kryptonite.
and it certainly does not rule out some
other world being the common origin point for Krypto and Argo
inhabitants.
True enough.
Isaac
2005-07-10 13:40:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Doyle
On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 13:29:48 +0100, Brian Doyle
Post by Brian Doyle
Post by Isaac
Post by Mark J. Reed
On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 02:56:04 GMT, Mark J. Reed
Post by Mark J. Reed
BTW, this is the third or fourth time they made reference to
Kara being Clark's "cousin". I assume that's an adoptive thing?
I mean, the TAS Kara is not even from the same planet.
She isn't?
No. In animated continuity, Argo wasn't a Kryptonian city, but another planet
in Krypton's solar system. Originally a Kryptonian colony from way back, IIRC
I don't think they were ever explicity about the relationship of the
inhabitants of Krypton and Argo. For all we know Krypton could be the colony,
or maybe both are colonies of some third world like Daxam.
For that last one, the giveaway would be if she reacts to kryptonite
or lead?
She's vulnerable to kryptonite not lead, but I'm not sure that
completely rules out Daxam
Well, assuming parallels between Comic DCU and Animated DCU unless otherwise
stated, it pretty much does, as Daxamites are immune to kryptonite.
As an example, the weakness to Kryptonite could have developed after
the colonizing of the Kryptonian solar system and may have resulted
from some environmental factor in the system, while the weakness to lead
is a result of some environmental factor in the Daxamite system. After
prolonged absence from Daxam and exposure to some factor X in the Kryptonian
system, the colonizers develop a weakness to kryptonite and an immunity
to lead.

Of course it's all just a mental exercise for no apparent purpose. I
don't think any Daxamites have shown up in the animated DCU.

There isn't much really to suggest that Daxamites and Kryptonians are
related except for their having the same powers. Perhaps all red sun
inhabitants develop those powers under a yellow sun.

Isaac
Brian Doyle
2005-07-10 17:01:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Isaac
Post by Brian Doyle
Well, assuming parallels between Comic DCU and Animated DCU unless otherwise
stated, it pretty much does, as Daxamites are immune to kryptonite.
As an example, the weakness to Kryptonite could have developed after
the colonizing of the Kryptonian solar system and may have resulted
from some environmental factor in the system, while the weakness to lead
is a result of some environmental factor in the Daxamite system.
Radioactive kryptonite was first formed when the planet exploded IIRC, so no
one would have been aware of it before then anyway..
Post by Isaac
Of course it's all just a mental exercise for no apparent purpose.
Oh I know, isn't that what usenet is basically for? :)
Post by Isaac
I don't think any Daxamites have shown up in the animated DCU.
Don't think so either, unless we saw a Mon-El, M'onel or Andromeda in the
background of the Superman episode with the Legion?
Post by Isaac
There isn't much really to suggest that Daxamites and Kryptonians are
related except for their having the same powers. Perhaps all red sun
inhabitants develop those powers under a yellow sun.
I think in the DCU it was once established that either Krypton is a colony
of Daxam or vice versa.
David Johnston
2005-07-10 17:11:42 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 18:01:09 +0100, "Brian Doyle"
Post by Brian Doyle
Post by Isaac
Post by Brian Doyle
Well, assuming parallels between Comic DCU and Animated DCU unless otherwise
stated, it pretty much does, as Daxamites are immune to kryptonite.
As an example, the weakness to Kryptonite could have developed after
the colonizing of the Kryptonian solar system and may have resulted
from some environmental factor in the system, while the weakness to lead
is a result of some environmental factor in the Daxamite system.
Radioactive kryptonite was first formed when the planet exploded IIRC,
Probably not. It is more likely that the kryptonite was already there
and reached critical mass, causing the planet to explode.
Post by Brian Doyle
Don't think so either, unless we saw a Mon-El, M'onel or Andromeda in the
background of the Superman episode with the Legion?
As I recall, it was a pretty early version of the Legion.
Devlin Tay
2005-07-10 23:20:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Johnston
As I recall, it was a pretty early version of the Legion.
Back in the early 80s (pre-Crisis), there was a Legion story where
Mon-El and Dev-Em were bantering about whether Daxam was the
mother-world of Krypton or vice-versa. I miss that Dev-Em - the one who
was actually Kryptonian, not the post-Crisis one where he was from
Titan, like Saturn Girl (his mental powers apparently triggered a
transformation that turned his body into a Kryptonian-like one -
silliest thing I've ever heard), or worse, that post-Glorith psychopath
from Daxam who destroyed the moon. The Kryptonian Dev-Em (or any other
Dev-Ems for that matter) never reappeared post-Boot, did he?

Devlin
Adelaide, Australia
FigNewton
2005-07-10 09:44:00 UTC
Permalink
On 9 Jul 2005 13:59:07 -0700, "Hand-of-Omega"
Post by Hand-of-Omega
Like the subject line says, SPOILERS beyond this point...
and some more

s
p
o
i
l
e
r

s
p
a
c
e

Yep, loved loved loved this great episode. Everyone was in top-notch
form. I was disappointed not to see any of the Batfamily other than
Summer Gleason in the final crowd scene, but I can live with that.
Perhaps someone with a better eye than me for catching animated
representations could tell me if Wally's Linda was there?
Post by Hand-of-Omega
*Flash more than made up for his lack of presence in earlier episodes;
nice references to the Speed Force, as well as to Crisis on Infinite
Earths, in a way.
Beautiful, that. I had tears in my eyes when Wally nearly gave in the
"beauty" of the Speed Force and the power of friendship pulled him
back. Who cares if it's corny, if it's done so well?
Post by Hand-of-Omega
*I never watched much of Batman Beyond, but this did seem like a good
way to end the series.
But this I didn't like at all. The whole "Epilogue" episode bothered
me. What about those of of us who DON'T like Batman Beyond, and don't
want the wonderful JLUverse tied to it so closely? Last year's
two-part final episode was, well, ignorable; after all, they'd
time-traveled, and there was enough wiggle-room to let a non BB-fan
like me suppose it was an alternate future that might not happen. This
time, though, it seems too firmly laid out to avoid.

I concede that I've never actually sat down and watched a single
episode of Batman Beyond or Static Shock. It's the concept of the show
that I don't like. No hope for the future? Gotham and the rest of the
DCU is in just as bad shape then as it is now? Tim Drake the ultimate
victim, Barbara an unhappy grouchy woman, Dick Grayson non-existent?
Our current crop of superheroes failed? I like superhero comics
because of the optimism of the good guys winning. Knowing that there's
a gloomy future takes away a lot of the fun.

And, of course, my biggest beef with BB: WHAT HAPPENED TO DICK
GRAYSON?! Ahem. 'Scuse the caps. :) But as others here have said, it's
kinda insulting to dismiss Dick and Tim, and even Babs, in order to
nanobot up an heir for the Bat.

A final question: who is the "assassin" who refuses to kill Terry's
parents? I have a vague idea it looked like the older Barbara Gordon,
but I'm probably wrong.

FigNewton
Brian Doyle
2005-07-10 11:45:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Johnston
On 9 Jul 2005 13:59:07 -0700, "Hand-of-Omega"
Post by Hand-of-Omega
Like the subject line says, SPOILERS beyond this point...
and some more
s
p
o
i
l
e
r
s
p
a
c
e
I concede that I've never actually sat down and watched a single
episode of Batman Beyond or Static Shock. It's the concept of the show
that I don't like. No hope for the future? Gotham and the rest of the
DCU is in just as bad shape then as it is now?
Tim Drake the ultimate victim,
Tim Drake now recovered and a happily married father of two (at least) and a
genius level communications engineer.
Post by David Johnston
Barbara an unhappy grouchy woman,
Barbara the happily married Commisoner of Gotham City, carrying on her
father legacy, and still fighting crime, though in a more traditional way
(Having been disillusioned by the events in the flashback during "Return of
the Joker")
Post by David Johnston
Dick Grayson non-existent?
Our current crop of superheroes failed?
Did the Golden Age heroes fail? There are still criminals out there now..
Post by David Johnston
I like superhero comics
because of the optimism of the good guys winning. Knowing that there's
a gloomy future takes away a lot of the fun.
If there had been no heroes to take their place yes that would be gloomy,
but we've seen many heroes in the future, a new Green Lantern, Aquagirl
Barda and so on.
Post by David Johnston
And, of course, my biggest beef with BB: WHAT HAPPENED TO DICK
GRAYSON?! Ahem. 'Scuse the caps. :)
You are excused! :)
Post by David Johnston
But as others here have said, it's
kinda insulting to dismiss Dick and Tim, and even Babs, in order to
nanobot up an heir for the Bat.
Indeed. Though to be fair, no one said that Waller's idea was a GOOD one.
Post by David Johnston
A final question: who is the "assassin" who refuses to kill Terry's
parents? I have a vague idea it looked like the older Barbara Gordon,
but I'm probably wrong.
Nope, that was Phantasm, from the "Mask of the Phatasm" movie, another nice
continuity reference.
FigNewton
2005-07-11 07:56:55 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 12:45:05 +0100, "Brian Doyle"
Post by Brian Doyle
Post by FigNewton
I concede that I've never actually sat down and watched a single
episode of Batman Beyond or Static Shock. It's the concept of the show
that I don't like. No hope for the future? Gotham and the rest of the
DCU is in just as bad shape then as it is now?
Tim Drake the ultimate victim,
Tim Drake now recovered and a happily married father of two (at least) and a
genius level communications engineer.
Erm. Did you make that up, or did it really happen? As I said, I've
never watched the show. My knowledge comes from comments by those who
have, essays, and yes, fanfic. :) If so, I will give you the point on
this.
Post by Brian Doyle
Post by FigNewton
Barbara an unhappy grouchy woman,
Barbara the happily married Commisoner of Gotham City, carrying on her
father legacy, and still fighting crime, though in a more traditional way
(Having been disillusioned by the events in the flashback during "Return of
the Joker")
And this one too, I guess. She's married? I'd picked up references to
a one-time fling with Bruce (BIG-time bleagh!) and a former
relationship that failed. But it's the disillusionment that bothers
me, you see -- the idea that Batman's first heirs are disinherited and
of no account in Terry's world. Babs went from fighting on Batman's
side to active disapproval of vigilantes in "her" city. That doesn't
sound like a happy ending to me.
Post by Brian Doyle
Post by FigNewton
Our current crop of superheroes failed?
Did the Golden Age heroes fail? There are still criminals out there now..
Fair enough, I suppose... although I'm enough of a pre-Crisis fan that
I don't really equate the Golden/Silver/whatever ages with failure on
the older ones. To me, that's just DC trying to create a coherent
timeline where none is possible. I don't see Supes, Bats et al as a
newer generation fixing the mistakes of the old; I see them as working
side by side. Batman Beyond seems different to me.
Post by Brian Doyle
Post by FigNewton
I like superhero comics
because of the optimism of the good guys winning. Knowing that there's
a gloomy future takes away a lot of the fun.
If there had been no heroes to take their place yes that would be gloomy,
but we've seen many heroes in the future, a new Green Lantern, Aquagirl
Barda and so on.
You lost me there. Of course you have the idea of sidekicks growing up
and moving on; there's the Dick Grayson thing again. But passing the
torch by working first side-by-side with a younger hero and then
allowing them to make it on their own (Dick, Roy Harper, Wally West,
Garth, and so forth) is a lot more different than the grafted-on
taking-over of Terry breaking into the Batcave to steal the Suit.

Barda is a new generation? I thought she fits into the "Other"
category.
Post by Brian Doyle
Post by FigNewton
But as others here have said, it's
kinda insulting to dismiss Dick and Tim, and even Babs, in order to
nanobot up an heir for the Bat.
Indeed. Though to be fair, no one said that Waller's idea was a GOOD one.
LOL! I did like how Waller was portrayed here: very pragmatic, doing
what needs doing without seriously questioning the ethics of the gray
areas. That's how she's always been written in Suicide Squad. It felt
right.
Post by Brian Doyle
Post by FigNewton
A final question: who is the "assassin" who refuses to kill Terry's
parents? I have a vague idea it looked like the older Barbara Gordon,
but I'm probably wrong.
Nope, that was Phantasm, from the "Mask of the Phatasm" movie, another nice
continuity reference.
Aha! Thanks, that does make much more sense.

FigNewton
Brian Doyle
2005-07-11 17:28:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by FigNewton
On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 12:45:05 +0100, "Brian Doyle"
Post by Brian Doyle
Tim Drake now recovered and a happily married father of two (at least) and a
genius level communications engineer.
Erm. Did you make that up, or did it really happen?
Yes, it's pivotal to the Return of the Joker story. After events in the
flashback of RoTJ, Tim, once he'd recovered, gave up on the whole hero game,
and went out and got a normal life.
Post by FigNewton
Post by Brian Doyle
Post by FigNewton
Barbara an unhappy grouchy woman,
Barbara the happily married Commisoner of Gotham City, carrying on her
father legacy, and still fighting crime, though in a more traditional way
(Having been disillusioned by the events in the flashback during "Return of
the Joker")
And this one too, I guess. She's married?
Yes. To a Gotham DA IIRC.
Post by FigNewton
I'd picked up references to
a one-time fling with Bruce (BIG-time bleagh!)
Indeed, that was wrong on any number of levels.
Post by FigNewton
and a former relationship that failed.
Don't recall that being mentioned, unless you count Dick Grayson.
Post by FigNewton
But it's the disillusionment that bothers
me, you see -- the idea that Batman's first heirs are disinherited and
of no account in Terry's world. Babs went from fighting on Batman's
side to active disapproval of vigilantes in "her" city. That doesn't
sound like a happy ending to me.
It wasn't at a certain level. She still wants to see justice done, but after
what happened to Tim, who was in essence her little brother, one can see her
point. She was never driven by tragedy as Batgirl, so when a tragedy on that
scalle happened, she coudln't take it.
Post by FigNewton
Post by Brian Doyle
If there had been no heroes to take their place yes that would be gloomy,
but we've seen many heroes in the future, a new Green Lantern, Aquagirl
Barda and so on.
You lost me there.
There's a JLU in the future, consisting of a whole new bunch of heroes.
Post by FigNewton
Of course you have the idea of sidekicks growing up
and moving on; there's the Dick Grayson thing again.
Of all the DCU heroes in the Animated Universe the only one with sidekicks
WAS Batman.
Post by FigNewton
But passing the
torch by working first side-by-side with a younger hero and then
allowing them to make it on their own (Dick, Roy Harper, Wally West,
Garth, and so forth) is a lot more different than the grafted-on
taking-over of Terry breaking into the Batcave to steal the Suit.
In the AU, that's exactly how Tim got the job.
Post by FigNewton
Barda is a new generation? I thought she fits into the "Other"
category.
Perhaps, though IIRC her first appearance in the Animated Universe was in
the future League in the Batman Beyond epsiode.
Post by FigNewton
LOL! I did like how Waller was portrayed here: very pragmatic, doing
what needs doing without seriously questioning the ethics of the gray
areas. That's how she's always been written in Suicide Squad. It felt
right.
Absolutely.
FigNewton
2005-07-12 15:45:34 UTC
Permalink
First of all, thanks for the info re the relatively happy endings for
Tim and Babs. That's stuff I hadn't picked up at all.

On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 18:28:22 +0100, "Brian Doyle"
Post by Brian Doyle
Post by FigNewton
But it's the disillusionment that bothers
me, you see -- the idea that Batman's first heirs are disinherited and
of no account in Terry's world. Babs went from fighting on Batman's
side to active disapproval of vigilantes in "her" city. That doesn't
sound like a happy ending to me.
It wasn't at a certain level. She still wants to see justice done, but after
what happened to Tim, who was in essence her little brother, one can see her
point. She was never driven by tragedy as Batgirl, so when a tragedy on that
scalle happened, she coudln't take it.
I like that point of yours: that Babs was the only one who got into it
for the "fun" or it, and she backed away from it wasn't fun any more.
It always annoyed me that poor Tim, in the regular DCU, started off
with a relatively normal family and had his mother killed, his father
partially crippled, and now his father dead and his step-mother mired
in deep depression. Even Dick had a happy-go-lucky attitude, despite
his tragedies. Why do Batguys HAVE to be all angsty and dark?
Post by Brian Doyle
Of all the DCU heroes in the Animated Universe the only one with sidekicks
WAS Batman.
To quote Clark in the wonderful "Knight Time" -- "For someone who
claims to be a loner, you sure do know how to pick a partner." (that's
by heart, so it might be off a bit)
Post by Brian Doyle
Post by FigNewton
But passing the
torch by working first side-by-side with a younger hero and then
allowing them to make it on their own (Dick, Roy Harper, Wally West,
Garth, and so forth) is a lot more different than the grafted-on
taking-over of Terry breaking into the Batcave to steal the Suit.
In the AU, that's exactly how Tim got the job.
Hm, not really. I haven't seen "Sins of the Father" for quite a while,
but didn't Bruce bring Tim into the Batcave himself? And then Tim
swiped the Robin suit to help go after Two-Face? And he was faced down
by Batman and Batgirl and underwent training? Again, I'm a bit
hampered by not having seen any of BB, but it does seem to be a very
different matter entirely.
Post by Brian Doyle
Perhaps, though IIRC her first appearance in the Animated Universe was in
the future League in the Batman Beyond epsiode.
Well, she's immortal, isn't she? She could easily be around for the
long haul. I know she's shown up in some of the JLU comics.

I never pretended to suggest that Batman Beyond hadn't created an
intricate universe populated by interesting characters. But as someone
who is a Dick Grayson fan first and foremost, and a Batman fan only by
proxy, BB never held the slightest interest for me - and it's a
disappointment to me, and others like me who don't like the Batman
Beyond universe, that the creators have chosen to definitely tie the
JLU to BB.

FigNewton
Brian Doyle
2005-07-12 18:28:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by FigNewton
It always annoyed me that poor Tim, in the regular DCU, started off
with a relatively normal family and had his mother killed, his father
partially crippled, and now his father dead and his step-mother mired
in deep depression.
IIRC Jack had a stay of execution as he was destined to die in Knightfall,
or something. Certainly the poor kid doesn';t deserve the crap he's had to
deal with of late, and the idea of having Tim having, effectively, two
functional Dad's in his life (One the Dad he loves, the other Batman) was a
tragically wasted opportunity.
Post by FigNewton
Even Dick had a happy-go-lucky attitude, despite
his tragedies. Why do Batguys HAVE to be all angsty and dark?
Recently? Devin bloody Grayson, that's why. I liked the fact that Tim wasn't
happy go lucky as a Robin, but a much mroe serious sort of guy, it
differentiated him well from his big brothers, and in a snesible way.
Post by FigNewton
To quote Clark in the wonderful "Knight Time" -- "For someone who
claims to be a loner, you sure do know how to pick a partner." (that's
by heart, so it might be off a bit)
Hey, so are all of my quotes.
Post by FigNewton
Post by Brian Doyle
Post by FigNewton
But passing the
torch by working first side-by-side with a younger hero and then
allowing them to make it on their own (Dick, Roy Harper, Wally West,
Garth, and so forth) is a lot more different than the grafted-on
taking-over of Terry breaking into the Batcave to steal the Suit.
In the AU, that's exactly how Tim got the job.
Hm, not really. I haven't seen "Sins of the Father" for quite a while,
but didn't Bruce bring Tim into the Batcave himself?
Not quite, Tim was in the Batboat when it autopiloted back to the cave with
an unconsicous Batman in it.
Post by FigNewton
And then Tim swiped the Robin suit to help go after Two-Face?
Which is kind of what Terry did.
Post by FigNewton
And he was faced down by Batman and Batgirl and underwent training?
Terry was faced down by Bruce (Who went so far as to flip the switch that
paralysed the batsuit remotely), until Bruce realised that Terry's aim's
were the same as his own.
Post by FigNewton
Again, I'm a bit hampered by not having seen any of BB, but it does seem
to be a very
different matter entirely.
You really should give it a try, I think you'd like it.
Post by FigNewton
Well, she's immortal, isn't she? She could easily be around for the
long haul. I know she's shown up in some of the JLU comics.
Yup, no problem there.
Post by FigNewton
I never pretended to suggest that Batman Beyond hadn't created an
intricate universe populated by interesting characters. But as someone
who is a Dick Grayson fan first and foremost, and a Batman fan only by
proxy, BB never held the slightest interest for me - and it's a
disappointment to me, and others like me who don't like the Batman
Beyond universe, that the creators have chosen to definitely tie the
JLU to BB.
Actually I'm also a Dick Grayson fan much more than Bruce Wayne, and BB is
interesting in having a completely different sort of "sidkick to play off
against Bruce. A cameo from Dick would have been awesome, but.... Plus, as
more than one fan noted, the BB costume which Bruce ended up wearing at the
end of his own bat career, and which Terry inherited, looks a hell of a lot
more like Dick's Nightwing costume than it does Bruce batsuit (apart from
the ears) so there is possibly a story of Dick turning down a new outfit
which would have "upgraded" him to Batman, with a an effort to accommodate
himself, but, as always entirely on Bruce's terms... an untold story indeed.
David Johnston
2005-07-11 18:06:44 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 10:56:55 +0300, FigNewton
Post by FigNewton
On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 12:45:05 +0100, "Brian Doyle"
Post by Brian Doyle
Post by FigNewton
I concede that I've never actually sat down and watched a single
episode of Batman Beyond or Static Shock. It's the concept of the show
that I don't like. No hope for the future? Gotham and the rest of the
DCU is in just as bad shape then as it is now?
Tim Drake the ultimate victim,
Tim Drake now recovered and a happily married father of two (at least) and a
genius level communications engineer.
Erm. Did you make that up, or did it really happen?
Tim eventually made a good recovery with the help of Batman II. He
doesn't have fond memories of his stint as Robin, but he isn't a wreck
either.
Post by FigNewton
Post by Brian Doyle
Post by FigNewton
Barbara an unhappy grouchy woman,
Barbara the happily married Commisoner of Gotham City, carrying on her
father legacy, and still fighting crime, though in a more traditional way
(Having been disillusioned by the events in the flashback during "Return of
the Joker")
And this one too, I guess. She's married?
She is, and apparently quite devoted to her husband.

I'd picked up references to
Post by FigNewton
a one-time fling with Bruce (BIG-time bleagh!) and a former
relationship that failed. But it's the disillusionment that bothers
me, you see -- the idea that Batman's first heirs are disinherited and
of no account in Terry's world. Babs went from fighting on Batman's
side to active disapproval of vigilantes in "her" city. That doesn't
sound like a happy ending to me.
It isn't an unhappy ending either. Really it is somewhere in the
middle.
Post by FigNewton
Post by Brian Doyle
Post by FigNewton
Our current crop of superheroes failed?
Did the Golden Age heroes fail? There are still criminals out there now..
Fair enough, I suppose... although I'm enough of a pre-Crisis fan that
I don't really equate the Golden/Silver/whatever ages with failure on
the older ones.
And you shouldn't. Crime is not going to magically go away just
because superheros are around, even if they are heros with magic
wands. That crime still exists is not a "failure". It's what you
should expect.
Post by FigNewton
Post by Brian Doyle
Post by FigNewton
I like superhero comics
because of the optimism of the good guys winning. Knowing that there's
a gloomy future takes away a lot of the fun.
If there had been no heroes to take their place yes that would be gloomy,
but we've seen many heroes in the future, a new Green Lantern, Aquagirl
Barda and so on.
You lost me there. Of course you have the idea of sidekicks growing up
and moving on; there's the Dick Grayson thing again. But passing the
torch by working first side-by-side with a younger hero and then
allowing them to make it on their own (Dick, Roy Harper, Wally West,
Garth, and so forth) is a lot more different than the grafted-on
taking-over of Terry breaking into the Batcave to steal the Suit.
The fact is, Batman gave up the mask too late in life for any of his
proteges to succeed him. Dick Grayson wasn't going to wait into his
50s to start a career as Batman. Bruce kept on going until he was
having heart attacks in combat. And I can totally believe that's
exactly what he would do.
Post by FigNewton
Barda is a new generation? I thought she fits into the "Other"
category.
At the time, Barda's appearance in the future was her first appearance
in the universe.
FigNewton
2005-07-12 15:45:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Johnston
Post by FigNewton
You lost me there. Of course you have the idea of sidekicks growing up
and moving on; there's the Dick Grayson thing again. But passing the
torch by working first side-by-side with a younger hero and then
allowing them to make it on their own (Dick, Roy Harper, Wally West,
Garth, and so forth) is a lot more different than the grafted-on
taking-over of Terry breaking into the Batcave to steal the Suit.
The fact is, Batman gave up the mask too late in life for any of his
proteges to succeed him. Dick Grayson wasn't going to wait into his
50s to start a career as Batman. Bruce kept on going until he was
having heart attacks in combat. And I can totally believe that's
exactly what he would do.
Oh, sure. So do I. And adding something to the Suit that would inject
heart medication when necessary. :) But "passing the torch" doesn't
have to mean taking up the mantle of the Bat. And BB cuts off all of
Batman's old proteges to make a clean break for Terry, and it feels
disloyal on Bruce's part to me.

FigNewton
Isaac
2005-07-10 11:47:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Johnston
On 9 Jul 2005 13:59:07 -0700, "Hand-of-Omega"
Post by Hand-of-Omega
Like the subject line says, SPOILERS beyond this point...
and some more
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Yep, loved loved loved this great episode. Everyone was in top-notch
form. I was disappointed not to see any of the Batfamily other than
Summer Gleason in the final crowd scene, but I can live with that.
Perhaps someone with a better eye than me for catching animated
representations could tell me if Wally's Linda was there?
Post by Hand-of-Omega
*Flash more than made up for his lack of presence in earlier episodes;
nice references to the Speed Force, as well as to Crisis on Infinite
Earths, in a way.
Beautiful, that. I had tears in my eyes when Wally nearly gave in the
"beauty" of the Speed Force and the power of friendship pulled him
back. Who cares if it's corny, if it's done so well?
I just don't like the speed force at all. I couldn't enjoy this part
of the show.
Post by David Johnston
Post by Hand-of-Omega
*I never watched much of Batman Beyond, but this did seem like a good
way to end the series.
But this I didn't like at all. The whole "Epilogue" episode bothered
me. What about those of of us who DON'T like Batman Beyond, and don't
want the wonderful JLUverse tied to it so closely? Last year's
two-part final episode was, well, ignorable; after all, they'd
time-traveled, and there was enough wiggle-room to let a non BB-fan
like me suppose it was an alternate future that might not happen. This
time, though, it seems too firmly laid out to avoid.
Epilogue is set 65 years into the future. I don't think the JLU cartoon is
going to last much more than one more season.
Post by David Johnston
A final question: who is the "assassin" who refuses to kill Terry's
parents? I have a vague idea it looked like the older Barbara Gordon,
but I'm probably wrong.
Looked like Barbara to me.

Isaac
Devlin Tay
2005-07-10 12:03:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Isaac
Looked like Barbara to me.
Nope, that's Phantasm, one of Bruce Wayne's old flames who turned
vigilante (one who's quite willing to kill, unlike Batman) to avenge her
family or some such, I don't really remember "Mask of the Phantasm" much.

Devlin
Adelaide, Australia
Isaac
2005-07-10 12:07:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Devlin Tay
Post by Isaac
Looked like Barbara to me.
Nope, that's Phantasm, one of Bruce Wayne's old flames who turned
vigilante (one who's quite willing to kill, unlike Batman) to avenge her
family or some such, I don't really remember "Mask of the Phantasm" much.
I'm glad to be wrong about this. I've never heard of Phantasm but it sounds
much preferable to having Barbara be the assassin.

Isaac
Brian Doyle
2005-07-10 12:11:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Isaac
Post by David Johnston
On 9 Jul 2005 13:59:07 -0700, "Hand-of-Omega"
Post by Hand-of-Omega
Like the subject line says, SPOILERS beyond this point...
and some more
s
p
o
i
l
e
r
s
p
a
c
e
Epilogue is set 65 years into the future.
A lot less than that. Tim is described as being 51 in BB: ROTJ (The
scriptbook), so if he was say, 14 when he was Robin, that would be 37 years.
And Epilogue is set ten years after that, so it has to be kess than 50
eyars.
Post by Isaac
Post by David Johnston
A final question: who is the "assassin" who refuses to kill Terry's
parents? I have a vague idea it looked like the older Barbara Gordon,
but I'm probably wrong.
Looked like Barbara to me.
An unfortunate problem with some of Bruce Timm's character designs. It's not
Barbara.
Isaac
2005-07-10 12:20:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Doyle
Post by Isaac
Post by David Johnston
On 9 Jul 2005 13:59:07 -0700, "Hand-of-Omega"
Post by Hand-of-Omega
Like the subject line says, SPOILERS beyond this point...
and some more
s
p
o
i
l
e
r
s
p
a
c
e
Epilogue is set 65 years into the future.
A lot less than that. Tim is described as being 51 in BB: ROTJ (The
scriptbook), so if he was say, 14 when he was Robin, that would be 37 years.
And Epilogue is set ten years after that, so it has to be kess than 50
eyars.
There was a title under the initial scene of Epilogue that said "65 years
from now" or some similar wording. Maybe that date is not consistent with
Batman Beyond continuity.

Isaac
Brian Doyle
2005-07-10 12:40:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Isaac
Post by Brian Doyle
On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 12:44:00 +0300, FigNewton
Post by David Johnston
On 9 Jul 2005 13:59:07 -0700, "Hand-of-Omega"
Post by Hand-of-Omega
Like the subject line says, SPOILERS beyond this point...
and some more
s
p
o
i
l
e
r
s
p
a
c
e
Epilogue is set 65 years into the future.
A lot less than that. Tim is described as being 51 in BB: ROTJ (The
scriptbook), so if he was say, 14 when he was Robin, that would be 37 years.
And Epilogue is set ten years after that, so it has to be kess than 50
eyars.
There was a title under the initial scene of Epilogue that said "65 years
from now" or some similar wording.
Really? Not on my copy there's not. When does it appear? My copy starts as
there's the fade up on the clockface as Terry unmasks and smashes the
mirror, and then the episode title shows up, so there'd not be much room for
another title, but I suppose it's possible.
Brian Doyle
2005-07-10 12:57:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Doyle
On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 13:11:48 +0100, Brian Doyle
Post by Brian Doyle
On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 12:44:00 +0300, FigNewton
Post by David Johnston
On 9 Jul 2005 13:59:07 -0700, "Hand-of-Omega"
Post by Hand-of-Omega
Like the subject line says, SPOILERS beyond this point...
and some more
s
p
o
i
l
e
r
s
p
a
c
e
Epilogue is set 65 years into the future.
A lot less than that. Tim is described as being 51 in BB: ROTJ (The
scriptbook), so if he was say, 14 when he was Robin, that would be 37 years.
And Epilogue is set ten years after that, so it has to be kess than
50 eyars.
There was a title under the initial scene of Epilogue that said "65
years from now" or some similar wording.
Really? Not on my copy there's not. When does it appear? My copy
starts as there's the fade up on the clockface as Terry unmasks and
smashes the mirror, and then the episode title shows up, so there'd
not be much room for another title, but I suppose it's possible.
On the other hand, rewatching the episode (Only meant to check that scene
but couldn't resist rewatching the whole thing), Waller says she's known
Bruce Wayne for over 50 years. Assuming that she met him the first time
Waller met Batman, that's stil only about 50 years, not 65.
Isaac
2005-07-10 13:51:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Doyle
Post by Brian Doyle
On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 13:11:48 +0100, Brian Doyle
Post by Brian Doyle
On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 12:44:00 +0300, FigNewton
Post by David Johnston
On 9 Jul 2005 13:59:07 -0700, "Hand-of-Omega"
Post by Hand-of-Omega
Like the subject line says, SPOILERS beyond this point...
and some more
s
p
o
i
l
e
r
s
p
a
c
e
Epilogue is set 65 years into the future.
A lot less than that. Tim is described as being 51 in BB: ROTJ (The
scriptbook), so if he was say, 14 when he was Robin, that would be 37 years.
And Epilogue is set ten years after that, so it has to be kess than
50 eyars.
There was a title under the initial scene of Epilogue that said "65
years from now" or some similar wording.
Really? Not on my copy there's not. When does it appear? My copy
starts as there's the fade up on the clockface as Terry unmasks and
smashes the mirror, and then the episode title shows up, so there'd
not be much room for another title, but I suppose it's possible.
On the other hand, rewatching the episode (Only meant to check that scene
but couldn't resist rewatching the whole thing), Waller says she's known
Bruce Wayne for over 50 years. Assuming that she met him the first time
Waller met Batman, that's stil only about 50 years, not 65.
Apparently there are different cuts of this episode. I've seen two
separate YTV versions, one of which did not include the scene I describe,
and the other which starts with Terry breaking into Waller's house and has
the aforementioned titling. The version without the scene in question was
a bit shorter than a typical cartoon episode.

I understand that the 65 years later does not add up, but that cannot be
the only reason for cutting the initial scene from the episode. I wonder
wassup with that.

Isaac
David Johnston
2005-07-10 16:22:58 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 12:44:00 +0300, FigNewton
Post by David Johnston
On 9 Jul 2005 13:59:07 -0700, "Hand-of-Omega"
Post by Hand-of-Omega
Like the subject line says, SPOILERS beyond this point...
and some more
s
p
o
i
l
e
r
s
p
a
c
e
I concede that I've never actually sat down and watched a single
episode of Batman Beyond or Static Shock. It's the concept of the show
that I don't like. No hope for the future? Gotham and the rest of the
DCU is in just as bad shape then as it is now?
Actually Gotham is in considerably better shape. Conventional crime
is more under control, it has been economically revitalised and and
the supervillains are less numerous. The police force is better
equipped and more capable.

Tim Drake the ultimate
Post by David Johnston
victim, Barbara an unhappy grouchy woman,
Barbara is not an unhappy woman in general. She just doesn't welcome
a new Batman. She feels that her better equipped and trained police
force makes one unnecessary. But seeing her with her husband makes
it pretty clear that she's generally happy with her life and her job.
She just isn't happy with Bruce or his new protege.
Post by David Johnston
Dick Grayson non-existent?
Dick Grayson isn't non-existent. We just don't know what happened to
him. Given that Batman continued working into his late 50s and that
there's a Nightwing costume in his cave, presumably Dick was off on
his own with an independant superhero career in some other city before
Tim Drake first came along.
Post by David Johnston
Our current crop of superheroes failed?
I'm not sure what you mean by "failed".
Brian Doyle
2005-07-10 16:34:40 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 12:44:00 +0300, FigNewton
Post by David Johnston
On 9 Jul 2005 13:59:07 -0700, "Hand-of-Omega"
Post by Hand-of-Omega
Like the subject line says, SPOILERS beyond this point...
and some more
s
p
o
i
l
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r
s
p
a
c
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Dick Grayson non-existent?
Dick Grayson isn't non-existent. We just don't know what happened to
him. Given that Batman continued working into his late 50s and that
there's a Nightwing costume in his cave, presumably Dick was off on
his own with an independant superhero career in some other city before
Tim Drake first came along.
Though it is galling there was no sign of him even in the mass crowd scenes
of JLU.

Check out "Batman: The Gotham Adventures" #12 for an excellent suggestion as
to what happened, which is vastly more entertaining, appropriate and
interesting than anything DC has done with their "brooding, angsty,
Batman-Lite" Nightwing in years... (Basically he DID move to Bludhaven
because Gotham didn't need him, and once there he became a far more public
(and popular) hero than Batman ever was, not lurking in the shadows and
being afraid of some media exposure if he could use it to aid in the
crimefighting biz)
FigNewton
2005-07-11 08:21:21 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 17:34:40 +0100, "Brian Doyle"
Post by Brian Doyle
Post by David Johnston
Dick Grayson isn't non-existent. We just don't know what happened to
him. Given that Batman continued working into his late 50s and that
there's a Nightwing costume in his cave, presumably Dick was off on
his own with an independant superhero career in some other city before
Tim Drake first came along.
Though it is galling there was no sign of him even in the mass crowd scenes
of JLU.
Check out "Batman: The Gotham Adventures" #12 for an excellent suggestion as
to what happened, which is vastly more entertaining, appropriate and
interesting than anything DC has done with their "brooding, angsty,
Batman-Lite" Nightwing in years... (Basically he DID move to Bludhaven
because Gotham didn't need him, and once there he became a far more public
(and popular) hero than Batman ever was, not lurking in the shadows and
being afraid of some media exposure if he could use it to aid in the
crimefighting biz)
AND he cut his hair, don't forget! :)

Seriously, "Batman Adventures" and "Batman and Robin Adventures" has
some of the best BW and DG stuff ever. The first volume of Gotham
Adventures, when Nightwing is still in Gotham, has some great stuff,
too.

Personal favorites are Batman Adventures #18 and #26 (which feature
Batgirl and Robin) and #34-#36 (a great three-parter involving Hugo
Strange, Catwoman, and loss of memory)

Batman and Robin Adventures #6 (National Insider reports that Batman
fired Robin!) and #8 (Ivy "kisses" Robin) and #20 (bets at the police
station on how many crooks B&R will nail in one night)

Gotham Adventures, v1 #16 (Alfred is kidnapped AGAIN!), and #24 (can't
the right super-hero fall into the trap?) and #26 ("Batman, don't you
know how to hold a baby?) and #44 (Great insight into pragmatic Bats
who TRUSTS his sidekicks)

And yes, Gotham Adventures #12 (v2) is a very fun read. I wish they
hadn't ended that run, but it was replaced with the comic from the
current cartoon.

Sorry for the digression, but that's the Batman I like most. :)

FigNewton
Brian Doyle
2005-07-11 17:51:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by FigNewton
On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 17:34:40 +0100, "Brian Doyle"
Post by Brian Doyle
Check out "Batman: The Gotham Adventures" #12 for an excellent suggestion as
to what happened, which is vastly more entertaining, appropriate and
interesting than anything DC has done with their "brooding, angsty,
Batman-Lite" Nightwing in years... (Basically he DID move to Bludhaven
because Gotham didn't need him, and once there he became a far more public
(and popular) hero than Batman ever was, not lurking in the shadows and
being afraid of some media exposure if he could use it to aid in the
crimefighting biz)
AND he cut his hair, don't forget! :)
That certainly didn't hurt! :)
Post by FigNewton
Seriously, "Batman Adventures" and "Batman and Robin Adventures" has
some of the best BW and DG stuff ever. The first volume of Gotham
Adventures, when Nightwing is still in Gotham, has some great stuff,
too.
Damn right.
Post by FigNewton
Personal favorites are Batman Adventures #18 and #26 (which feature
Batgirl and Robin)
Loved the emphasis on Batgirl as a newbie. My faroutie is where she's
staking out an apartment where some plot mcguffin or other might be, but
can't search it until all the people leave. Suddenly Robin appears beside
her

Robin - It's not in there

Batgirl (sarcastically) - Oh yeah, what did you do, sneak around from shadow
to shadow whilst they weren't looking.

Robin (Slightly puzzled) - Well, yes.

Batigrl - Oh...
Post by FigNewton
Batman and Robin Adventures #6 (National Insider reports that Batman
fired Robin!)
"What took you so long"

"There were three Robin's between me and the car"
Post by FigNewton
Gotham Adventures, v1 #16 (Alfred is kidnapped AGAIN!), and #24 (can't
the right super-hero fall into the trap?)
Nightwing - I think she's animatronic
Croc - I don't care WHERE she's from, she's cute.
Post by FigNewton
#44 (Great insight into pragmatic Bats who TRUSTS his sidekicks)
And who doesn't see them just as Nightwing and Robin, but as Dick and Tim,
his children.

I loved GA v1 #1 Where the Joker taunts Batgirl - "It's just you and me,
alone together, let's swap secrets - You tell me about the first boy you
ever kissed and I'll tell you about the first one I ever killed."
Post by FigNewton
And yes, Gotham Adventures #12 (v2) is a very fun read. I wish they
hadn't ended that run, but it was replaced with the comic from the
current cartoon.
Sadly....
FigNewton
2005-07-12 15:46:06 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 18:51:35 +0100, "Brian Doyle"
Post by Brian Doyle
Post by FigNewton
Seriously, "Batman Adventures" and "Batman and Robin Adventures" has
some of the best BW and DG stuff ever. The first volume of Gotham
Adventures, when Nightwing is still in Gotham, has some great stuff,
too.
Damn right.
Hee! You went ahead and quoted most of my personal favorite lines! :)
Post by Brian Doyle
Post by FigNewton
Personal favorites are Batman Adventures #18 and #26 (which feature
Batgirl and Robin)
Loved the emphasis on Batgirl as a newbie. My faroutie is where she's
staking out an apartment where some plot mcguffin or other might be, but
can't search it until all the people leave. Suddenly Robin appears beside
her
Robin - It's not in there
Batgirl (sarcastically) - Oh yeah, what did you do, sneak around from shadow
to shadow whilst they weren't looking.
Robin (Slightly puzzled) - Well, yes.
Batigrl - Oh...
To be fair to Babs, there was this exchange, too:

Batgirl: Robin, how long did you train before you started being Robin?

Robin: About six, seven years. Why?

Batgirl: Just wondering.

...Which is why I enjoyed the emphasis, as you put it, on Batgirl as a
newbie. Dick SHOULD be way out of her league, just as Barbara should
be way out of Tim's. There's a cute little snippet in one of the
Gotham Adventures comics, where they're all in the Batcave discussing
something. Tim is balancing on a wire and loses his balance. Batgirl
casually reaches out a hand and grabs him. Experience always makes a
difference. :)
Post by Brian Doyle
Post by FigNewton
Batman and Robin Adventures #6 (National Insider reports that Batman
fired Robin!)
"What took you so long"
"There were three Robin's between me and the car"
Best. line. EVER. :)
Post by Brian Doyle
Post by FigNewton
Gotham Adventures, v1 #16 (Alfred is kidnapped AGAIN!), and #24 (can't
the right super-hero fall into the trap?)
Nightwing - I think she's animatronic
Croc - I don't care WHERE she's from, she's cute.
And don't forget Bruce's utter cluelessness when Batgirl asked him if
he'd taken Catwoman out on a date! Men. :)
Post by Brian Doyle
Post by FigNewton
#44 (Great insight into pragmatic Bats who TRUSTS his sidekicks)
And who doesn't see them just as Nightwing and Robin, but as Dick and Tim,
his children.
And, again, the experience thing, as Dick understands the reasoning
and motivations that Bruce simply can't put into words.
Post by Brian Doyle
I loved GA v1 #1 Where the Joker taunts Batgirl - "It's just you and me,
alone together, let's swap secrets - You tell me about the first boy you
ever kissed and I'll tell you about the first one I ever killed."
And Alfred to the rescue! Naturally. :) Alfred is one of the absolute
best Animated Universe characters. His casting was a stroke of genius.

FigNewton
FigNewton
2005-07-11 08:03:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Johnston
Post by FigNewton
Post by Hand-of-Omega
Like the subject line says, SPOILERS beyond this point...
and some more
s
p
o
i
l
e
r
s
p
a
c
e
I concede that I've never actually sat down and watched a single
episode of Batman Beyond or Static Shock. It's the concept of the show
that I don't like. No hope for the future? Gotham and the rest of the
DCU is in just as bad shape then as it is now?
Actually Gotham is in considerably better shape. Conventional crime
is more under control, it has been economically revitalised and and
the supervillains are less numerous. The police force is better
equipped and more capable.
I hadn't known this, so thanks for clarifying. How does this fit with
the "Jokerz," which I've seen referenced a few times?
Post by David Johnston
Barbara is not an unhappy woman in general. She just doesn't welcome
a new Batman. She feels that her better equipped and trained police
force makes one unnecessary. But seeing her with her husband makes
it pretty clear that she's generally happy with her life and her job.
She just isn't happy with Bruce or his new protege.
As I mentioned in my reply to Brian, I'd thought she was unmarried.
But being unhappy with Bruce shows bad blood between Bats and his
protoges, which leads to...
Post by David Johnston
Post by FigNewton
Dick Grayson non-existent?
Dick Grayson isn't non-existent. We just don't know what happened to
him. Given that Batman continued working into his late 50s and that
there's a Nightwing costume in his cave, presumably Dick was off on
his own with an independant superhero career in some other city before
Tim Drake first came along.
But that's my point. I don't know if Dick is dead in the BB universe,
working happily in Bludhaven, off on Tamaran with Kory raising umpteen
kids, or what. But the point that there is NO MENTION whatsoever of
Dick is seriously troubling. It's taking the
Batman-as-control-freak-and-dysfunctional-parent to really miserable
extremes. Babs doesn't like him, Dick isn't there at all, and as far
as I know (do correct me, please, if I'm wrong), Tim doesn't exist
until we find out how much he suffered in ROTJ. It's depressing to
consider that BB still portrays Bruce as the childish, pouting brat
who never learned to say "thank you" to anyone that we see in the
comics nowadays - ESPECIALLY since the Batman of TAS was a much more
well-rounded, compassionate guy.

FigNewton
Brian Doyle
2005-07-11 17:40:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by FigNewton
Post by David Johnston
Post by FigNewton
Post by Hand-of-Omega
Like the subject line says, SPOILERS beyond this point...
and some more
s
p
o
i
l
e
r
s
p
a
c
e
Actually Gotham is in considerably better shape. Conventional crime
is more under control, it has been economically revitalised and and
the supervillains are less numerous. The police force is better
equipped and more capable.
I hadn't known this, so thanks for clarifying. How does this fit with
the "Jokerz," which I've seen referenced a few times?
The Jokerz are just a sort of subculture street gang, no real organisation
or leadership, just a sort of lifestyle choice for semi-anarchic punks.
Post by FigNewton
But being unhappy with Bruce shows bad blood between Bats and his
protoges, which leads to...
Not so much unhappy, as disappointed. After what happened to Tim she lost
her faith in juvenile, costumed heroics and is horrified that Bruce is
starting the cycle again, he seems to have learned nothing.
Post by FigNewton
But that's my point. I don't know if Dick is dead in the BB universe,
working happily in Bludhaven, off on Tamaran with Kory raising umpteen
kids, or what.
Actually we do. Barbara tells Terry that if he thinks he has isues with
Bruce, he should look up Dick Grayson some day "Does HE have stories to
tell".
Post by FigNewton
But the point that there is NO MENTION whatsoever of
Dick is seriously troubling. It's taking the
Batman-as-control-freak-and-dysfunctional-parent to really miserable
extremes. Babs doesn't like him, Dick isn't there at all, and as far
as I know (do correct me, please, if I'm wrong), Tim doesn't exist
until we find out how much he suffered in ROTJ.
It was an ongoing mystery until ROTJ. There were apparently plans to do a
follow up movie which explained Nightwings story, but it was never made.
Post by FigNewton
It's depressing to
consider that BB still portrays Bruce as the childish, pouting brat
who never learned to say "thank you" to anyone that we see in the
comics nowadays - ESPECIALLY since the Batman of TAS was a much more
well-rounded, compassionate guy.
Yeah, I thought that took a bit of a wrong turn from "Old Wounds" onwards.
David Johnston
2005-07-11 18:14:50 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 11:03:57 +0300, FigNewton
Post by FigNewton
Post by David Johnston
Post by FigNewton
Post by Hand-of-Omega
Like the subject line says, SPOILERS beyond this point...
and some more
s
p
o
i
l
e
r
s
p
a
c
e
Actually Gotham is in considerably better shape. Conventional crime
is more under control, it has been economically revitalised and and
the supervillains are less numerous. The police force is better
equipped and more capable.
I hadn't known this, so thanks for clarifying. How does this fit with
the "Jokerz," which I've seen referenced a few times?
The Jokerz are a gang. I said things were better, not that they were
perfect. Gotham is still a big city and like any big city has gangs
and crime. But it isn't the gigantic slum it used to be.
Post by FigNewton
Post by David Johnston
Post by FigNewton
Dick Grayson non-existent?
Dick Grayson isn't non-existent. We just don't know what happened to
him. Given that Batman continued working into his late 50s and that
there's a Nightwing costume in his cave, presumably Dick was off on
his own with an independant superhero career in some other city before
Tim Drake first came along.
But that's my point. I don't know if Dick is dead in the BB universe,
working happily in Bludhaven, off on Tamaran with Kory raising umpteen
kids, or what. But the point that there is NO MENTION whatsoever of
Dick is seriously troubling.
No it isn't. It's just them keeping their options open.

It's taking the
Post by FigNewton
Batman-as-control-freak-and-dysfunctional-parent to really miserable
extremes. Babs doesn't like him, Dick isn't there at all, and as far
as I know (do correct me, please, if I'm wrong), Tim doesn't exist
until we find out how much he suffered in ROTJ.
No, earlier on they were clear that what happened to Tim was the
reason why Batman never took another sidekick. They just weren't
clear on what happened to Tim.
FigNewton
2005-07-12 15:56:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by FigNewton
It's taking the
Post by FigNewton
Batman-as-control-freak-and-dysfunctional-parent to really miserable
extremes. Babs doesn't like him, Dick isn't there at all, and as far
as I know (do correct me, please, if I'm wrong), Tim doesn't exist
until we find out how much he suffered in ROTJ.
No, earlier on they were clear that what happened to Tim was the
reason why Batman never took another sidekick. They just weren't
clear on what happened to Tim.
Aha, thanks for the clarification. There must have been mucho
speculation, back in the day. :)

FigNewton
Brian Doyle
2005-07-10 13:00:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hand-of-Omega
Ironically, I just picked up the season one Batman box set and so
noticed that the final shot of JLU almost exactly approximates the
*first* shot of BTAS...(wipes tear away)
Darn it, I KNEW that reminded me of something! Thanks for remind me what it
was!
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